Unlock Organizational Value with Learning Metrics

In this episode of Powered by Learning, Ajay Pangarkar, co-author of Learning Metrics: How to Measure the Impact of Organizational Learning, joins us to discuss why measuring learning outcomes is crucial for aligning L&D with business goals. He shares powerful insights into how L&D professionals can connect learning to performance metrics, creating measurable value that resonates across the organization.

Show Notes:

Here are some key takeaways from our conversation with author Ajay Pangarkar. 

Accountability Drives Organizational Value: L&D must focus on delivering measurable results tied to business goals; when budgets are cut, it often reflects a lack of demonstrated value.

Align Metrics with Organizational Goals: Successful L&D metrics should connect learning outcomes with operational and performance metrics rather than relying solely on internal benchmarks.

Engagement Across Levels of the Organization is Essential: Gaining buy-in requires engaging three key groups: senior leaders, mid-level managers, and the learners themselves.

Mission-Driven Learning: When unsure of L&D’s focus, professionals should look to the organization’s mission to align training objectives with core business needs.

Use Performance Metrics as a Roadmap: L&D teams should assess and utilize existing organizational performance metrics to identify and address specific pain points, ensuring learning initiatives drive tangible improvements.

Read more:

How to Measure the Impact of Organizational Learning by Ajay Pangarkar for Training Industry

Order Learning Metrics by Ajay Pangarkar and Teresa Kirkwood

Powered by Learning listener discount code: KOGANPAGE20

Learning Metrics is a practical book for L&D professionals which answers these questions and provides guidance for measuring and communicating the impact of L&D activity in the business. It covers how to measure participant engagement with learning, learning retention and changes in employee performance post-learning. There is also guidance on how to measure on-the-job behavior change as a result of learning, as well as metrics for measuring the organizational impact of learning. This book also has essential guidance on how to use learning analytics to assess the return on investment (ROI) of learning and how to use these results to adopt a data-driven approach and map learning metrics to organizational KPIs. Learning Metrics also includes guidance on how to communicate the impact of the company's learning and development activity to all business stakeholders.

Powered by Learning earned Awards of Distinction in the Podcast/Audio and Business Podcast categories from The Communicator Awards and a Gold and Silver Davey Award. The podcast is also named to Feedspot's Top 40 L&D podcasts and Training Industry’s Ultimate L&D Podcast Guide.

Learn more about d'Vinci at www.dvinci.com.
Follow us on LinkedIn
Like us on Facebook

Transcript

Susan Cort: [00:00:00] Learning and development programs must deliver measurable results that align with operational goals in order to be valued. 

Ajay Pangarkar: They just cut my budget, you know, so they don't think we're important. I said, no, you're looking at it all wrong. I said, you need to look at yourself in the mirror, because you're basically, you're not watching the gauges, you're not watching the performance metrics.

Ajay Pangarkar: You're not adding any value to the organization. And it's not personal. When they cut your budget, it means that you're not adding value, so they're taking that money and putting it elsewhere that's adding value to the organization because they have scarce resources. So, it's not personal to you that they're cutting your budget, it's that you didn't hold yourself accountable to what they need.

Susan Cort: That's Ajay Pangarkar, author of Learning Metrics, How to Measure the Impact of Organizational Learning. Ajay will share how to understand L& D's role in an organization to make sure you're helping the learners, your department, and the business succeed. Next, on Powered by Learning. [00:01:00] 

Announcer: Powered by Learning is brought to you by d’Vinci Interactive.

Announcer: d’Vinci's approach to learning is grounded in 30 years of innovation and expertise. We use proven strategies and leading technology to develop solutions that empower learners to improve quality and boost performance. Learn more at dvinci.com. 

Susan Cort: Joining me today is d’Vinci President Mason Scuderi and Ajay Pangarkar, a partner and co-founder of Central Knowledge.com, a leading workforce performance consultancy, Ajay recently co-authored a book with Teresa Kirkwood called Learning Metrics, How to Measure the Impact of Organizational Learning. He joins us today to talk about the book and the importance of measuring data to improve employee and business performance.

Susan Cort: Ajay, welcome back to Powered by Learning. 

Ajay Pangarkar: I'm very happy to be here, Susan, with you and Mason, so it's great to be back. Really enjoyed chatting with you both. 

Mason Scuderi: Welcome to the podcast, Ajay. 

Susan Cort: Ajay, good to see you. Tell us a little bit about your [00:02:00] background and your company, so our listeners understand the perspective you're coming from.

Ajay Pangarkar: You did say you have a limited time in a podcast, right? So, okay, um, I'll keep it short. Um, my background actually is interesting because I came from, um, I won't get into it too much, but I came from an engineering background first. Um, didn't like it, uh, pursued a business degree both in finance and accounting.

Ajay Pangarkar: Um, went on to do a CPA in Canada, uh, became a fellow to CPA, uh, not some years ago. Um, but I also went to pursue a graduate degree in adult education. And at that time I was trying to figure out how to put the two pieces together. How do I put this finance accounting with education and learning? And, uh, it came to me that, uh, during my experiences that, uh, when I was working for a major multinational, uh, leading a department, they were sending people over to training.

Ajay Pangarkar: And I, and I, and I always felt that. The people coming back from being held accountable, or I should say training was me held accountable appropriately to my business success within the department. [00:03:00] And so it, that epiphany sort of revealed to me that there's a disconnect between how training and learning takes place in organization and it's accountability to the success of the organization.

Ajay Pangarkar: And so from that. I, uh, decided to, uh, with my partner and my wife, I should say, she's also my co-author, um, to start a business and, and lead that charge, try to make learning more strategic and accountable within organizations. 

Susan Cort: And you've definitely done that. So thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.

Mason Scuderi: Ajay, can you kick us off with a summary of learning metrics and its intended audience? 

Ajay Pangarkar: Well, in summary, um, the title really expresses it all, right? So, it is about holding learning accountable to specific objectives and outcomes. The term metrics is actually about that. Where it comes a bit of a misnomer is like, do we create our own learning metrics?

Ajay Pangarkar: And that, that's what the book is about, but it's also what the book isn't about. When I, what I mean by that is the book is speaking to how do we make learning accountable to [00:04:00] metrics within the organization, not creating our own metrics. And while creating our own metrics within learning is useful and required within the scope of learning itself when we're designing it, the real purpose of learning is actually to make a difference in the organization.

Ajay Pangarkar: So, the scope of the book takes you from, um, a very high-level strategic plan Purview of the organization and moving down through the funnel, uh, where you get into a very frontline, granular, actually hands on, roll up your sleeve kind of how do you apply learning within an organization to make it accountable.

Ajay Pangarkar: And if I'm designing a learning course or a program, how do I actually make that happen within an organization that people say, wow, that was well worth it and it's moving the organization forward. In essence, and within, I guess, what, 30 seconds, that's the book. Um, but it really takes people through that journey where basically you have to see, and you have to take that 50, 000 foot view and then bring yourself down into a very detailed level.

Ajay Pangarkar: The audience itself is actually, you know, people say, well, you're really speaking to people who are [00:05:00] accountable for learning, meaning the C, the CLO or, um, you know, trained directors or that kind of stuff. And while that's true, you know, they're probably gonna get a lot of use out of the book. What I really want to speak to is, uh, the people who are actually getting hands-on with the learning.

Ajay Pangarkar: So the instructors, the instructional designers, and those are the people that I think who always say to themselves that. We don't have to worry about that stuff. And I say, no, you do have to worry about that stuff because you're expected to know the outcomes of what learning is supposed to deliver. So how do you design something when you don't know the overall picture?

Ajay Pangarkar: And so that's really where I'm trying to come out with the book is speaking to the decision makers of learning, but I want to bring it down to those who are actually in the foxhole of, you know, of learning basically who are actually fighting the fight and trying to make, make it accountable. 

Susan Cort: That makes such sense when you think about it, because. You know, learning certainly has gained prominence over the years among leadership and having a seat at the table, but it doesn't all the time get that stakeholder acceptance. And that [00:06:00] might be because L& D professionals are using their own data and not looking at the data of the organization that they're serving.

Ajay Pangarkar: Well, you know, Stephen Covey always said, begin with the end in mind, right? So, you know, if you don't know where your destination is, how do you plan for it? Right? If the three of us wanted to take a trip somewhere, I'm not going to say, let's just get into a car or hop on a plane and go somewhere. 

Susan Cort: I'm not that spontaneous. I need to plan. 

Ajay Pangarkar: No,me neither. But even if you are spontaneous, you're still gonna have a destination in mind. Right? But if I tell you just a specific destination, Let's grab a plane, let's grab a car, let's go. You're going to sort of question me a little bit and say, well, what are we doing this? Why am I wasting my money?

Ajay Pangarkar: Why am I wasting my resources doing this with you, Ajay? Without that destination and knowing where that destination is and that accountability, you cannot put something together. And you said something, Susan, that was really interesting, that, that seat at the table that we speak about, that proverbial seat at the table where we're part of the decision-making process.

Ajay Pangarkar: Leaders need that. I mean, I'm talking about not learning leaders. I'm talking about The C suited organization, they want us there because [00:07:00] they know, and I know people are going to have a hard time believing this Mason when I say it, but learning is in the top five priorities of C suite decision makers.

Ajay Pangarkar: Learning and knowledge within an organization is a priority, but there's a disconnect from the learning side. And I hate to be that… I'm not trying to sell you bad tasting cough medicine where I'm feeding it to people. But the reality is we're not connecting to what they actually need. And we need to make that connection within their organization and connect to those performance metrics.

Mason Scuderi: Ajay, what do you think historically, why has there been a disconnect between operational and learning metrics? 

Ajay Pangarkar: Well, this is all anecdotal, and it's probably just my opinion, by the way. Um, you know, working within a corporation for many years and in different sizes of companies. I was also not small.

Ajay Pangarkar: Whenever training would come up, it was almost that spoiled child syndrome. Uh, what I mean by that is prior to technologies, and that came out in learning in the last, you know, 10, 20, 25 years, it was [00:08:00] always, so we have to put money to training and we'll just dumb money there and they'll do what they do and hopefully, People will get something out of it.

Ajay Pangarkar: And that, that's sort of like, well, I call it the spoiled child syndrome because we just got money, the truck backed up, money dumped in, and we were supposed to scale up people, really what training was about was actually scaling up people for, you know, onboarding, getting people skilled up to be able to do a job and of course, compliance.

Ajay Pangarkar: Well, those are the two basic things, but over time we need more than that. And so, when technology came out and, and more accountability was required because of. Constant change within an organization, and change for me implies constant learning. That change requires people to assimilate, um, accumulate and assimilate knowledge at a rapid pace.

Ajay Pangarkar: But the point being is that there's still that disconnect in accountability because I think there's still a mindset that, well, they just do this learning stuff and we don't understand how it applies to people. And there's a [00:09:00] disconnect between the decision makers not understanding how to connect it. I mean, I'm talking about the C suite outside of learning.

Ajay Pangarkar: And the learning people not really being literate enough. To make that connection. And I think there's that, that chasm, if you want to call it. 

Mason Scuderi: Ajay, it's great to hear about your career experience. Um, what, what do you think drill down into the most, uh, impactful career experience that informed, um, your message and learning metrics?

Ajay Pangarkar: Well, I sort of alluded to in a previous question when, um, I was working at this major multinational, we were actually acquired, I was working for a small company, we were acquired, um, into it. And like any, uh, young person, I was, uh. I was quickly rising up the ranks and I was managing a department and every single time my boss would say to me, the department or the division supervisor would say to me, send the staff to training.

Ajay Pangarkar: Okay, the first time is kind of nice. Money was coming out of my budget. I was held to very certain standards to achieve performance objectives for the department with my staff. [00:10:00] Second time comes around, send the people to training. Okay, money comes out, people leave, come back, and none of this was being applied.

Ajay Pangarkar: And this kept repeating a few times. Until one time my boss said to me, you know, send a staff to training and I'm like, I don't think so. And he looks at me, he goes, why, it wasn't really a question, you're supposed to do it. And I'm like, no, until you tell me what my money being taken on my budget is doing for the department.

Ajay Pangarkar: And how am I achieving my objectives better when they come back? When you tell me that, then I'll be willing to spend the money. And so he looks at me and he goes, yeah, but we need to basically get economies of scale out of it. We spend so much on training and we have to put so many butts in seats. And so bring down the cost per person.

Ajay Pangarkar: And I said, well, that's not a reasonable metric to justify spending on a business activity like training. This, the metric I said to him, and I was young and brash, and I said to him, I said, the metric you want to measure is [00:11:00] what are these people doing better when they come back. Then when they left and he looks at me, he goes, well, you're probably right, but still send me to training.

Ajay Pangarkar: Okay. Well, you know, I'm not winning this. I mean, I'm winning the battle, but I'm not winning the war. And it just bothered me significantly. So at one point I just said to him, I said, Um, you can't help me to the same standards of performance outcomes if I'm not getting it a value out of what I'm, these people are supposed to be learning and applying within the job.

Ajay Pangarkar: And that's really the biggest lesson that's lasted with me for what, 25, 30 years now that has stuck with me. And I tell that to people, especially when C suite executives, a lot, a lot of training, training people don't call me. I think I mentioned this to you Mason previously, but training people don't call me.

Ajay Pangarkar: It's actually senior managers within organizations who say to me. Training is not doing what it's supposed to do. Can you go talk to them? And I'm like, you know, so that's, that's sort of, it's still existing today, which [00:12:00] is quite surprising. 

Mason Scuderi: The word discipline is what pops into my mind, you know, when we think about using learning metrics to, to really justify training.

Mason Scuderi: And we might be a little bit afraid of that, right? Because we always want to see more training, uh, and new exciting technologies, but really what you're doing is creating something that's sustainable by using learning metrics to connect to organizational leaders. 

Ajay Pangarkar: Yeah. And of course, you know, we have all this technology, as you mentioned, right?

Ajay Pangarkar: You guys have some great technology as well. But at the end of the day, a technology is just a tool. A tool is only as useful. For its purpose, as you apply it and use it within the context of how you're making it accountable, right? So the tool is just a tool. You can't blame an LMS or any learning tool for not working when you don't have your objectives set up straight properly.

Ajay Pangarkar: You know, at the end of the day, it's really about, again, I use the word accountability. Um, and to your point, a bit of discipline of making sure we're meeting the right objectives. To put the right tools in place, right? So that's, that's where I'm [00:13:00] sort of coming from. 

Mason Scuderi: So, Ajay, within our organizations, if we're looking to build accountability and looking to increase the emphasis on learning metrics, what are some tactics that we can use to increase buy in?

Ajay Pangarkar: Well, as you know, I do quite a few courses with LinkedIn Learning. One of them is called Gaining Buy in for your Learning Efforts. And, you know, I think one error that a lot of people make in learning, and this is just natural human instinct, it's nothing more than that, we tend to go to people who we believe are going to make the decision.

Ajay Pangarkar: So, who do we go to? We go to the senior leaders of the organization, right? The people who we think are controlling the purse strings and making the final decisions on everything. So, we go to the CFO and, you know, senior vice presidents and whatever of the organization and get their sign off. Even maybe the CEO, if this organization is small enough, and get their write off.

Ajay Pangarkar: And we say, okay, we got their approval. Everybody should be able to accept it. Well, that's false. That's a myth. There, to me, there are always, [00:14:00] generically, by the way, it's probably more levels, but generically there's three levels of buy in for learning. One, of course, is a senior leadership that I talked about.

Ajay Pangarkar: You need to get their buy in, of course, and support. But they're just endorsers. They're not the actual people who are going to be bought into it. You need the mid-level managers or the operational managers who are actually burdened with making these metrics happen. They're under that kind of pressure.

Ajay Pangarkar: But more importantly, if you want to see your learning fail, ignore the users or the employees who are actually taking the learning. Because those people Are the ones who are going to make you successful or sink you. If they don't feel that learning is valuable to the organization or to themselves, I should say, because it's human nature to look out for ourselves, to, you know, do better in our jobs, get a promotion, get more pay, whatever it is, those incentives, if that training is not doing something for them to make them better and whatever their intrinsic motivation is.

Ajay Pangarkar: [00:15:00] They're going to just trash you, and it's going to go up that food chain. And then that's what senior leadership is going to say, well, why did we actually approve this? And, you know, if your learning is useless, why did we do this? So, in essence, there are three levels of buy in that you need to get. And you have to approach them differently, not lie to them.

Ajay Pangarkar: I didn't say lie here. I just said differently. Each of them have a perspective on how they see training affecting their organization. The senior leadership is very strategic and, you know, the middle level manager is very operational, translating that strategy into operations. And the, basically the people actually doing the work are the ones actually applying it.

Ajay Pangarkar: And so, I always say to them before, or the one, one thing I always like to say is that when you go to the employees, rather than push it onto them, ask them what they want to learn. What is their need? And get them to buy into it that way. That way they are invested into helping you design the learning they want, not what you want to push on to them.

Mason Scuderi: Yeah, [00:16:00] that really speaks to the value of buy in across the whole organization. And maybe that's the place to start. Where you can find the synergy and the alignment from, uh, all the way at the top. 

Ajay Pangarkar: It's funny, I'd work, and then I work backwards, Mason. I'd work, actually, before I would go to the senior leadership, I'd say, why don't you go to the department?

Ajay Pangarkar: And I'll go to the operational manager and say, can I speak with you and find out what your performance pain points are? Like, what are the issues you're encountering? What do you have to meet in the next six months, 12 months, uh, as per your objectives? Okay, great. Now that I know that, how do your people fit in?

Ajay Pangarkar: Can I talk to them? And find out what they need, right? If you want to do a true needs assessment at organization, you need to talk to those people. Because they know their jobs, they know their accountability. And then once you get that, now you can feed it up the food chain and say, okay, how does this apply strategically to the organization?

Ajay Pangarkar: How does this connect up here to the senior leadership's decision making? 

Susan Cort: And then you're creating [00:17:00] training that's impacting employees and impacting the organization and not just doing training for training's sake. 

Ajay Pangarkar: Exactly. Exactly. You know, it's, it's, it's, I'm not any smarter than anybody else in the world.

Ajay Pangarkar: I mean, and, and this is to me, what I call unknown common sense for training and development people. This is just things that. When I say it, they say, oh yeah, that's right. You already knew, you already know this. I'm just revealing something you already know, but you're not acting on, and I think that's really 

Mason Scuderi: very important.

Mason Scuderi: Well, as we're working towards more, more visible metrics within an organization, and metrics that align, you know, to the top line company mission and goals, uh, what would you say is an actionable piece of advice for L& D professionals, uh, that they can take away from the book? 

Ajay Pangarkar: So, there's a couple of things, actually.

Ajay Pangarkar: A lot of learning and development people. Well, I would say, especially people at the lower levels of training development, meaning who are actually involved in designing training and actually putting, trying to say what has to [00:18:00] happen in training, often feel a little lost. And the one piece of advice I would give to them is that if you're feeling lost and not sure where you should focus your efforts.

Ajay Pangarkar: Without looking, you know, because it's embarrassing sometimes to go up to other, the decision makers and say, what training should I be doing? Right. You're hired to decide that. So I say, well, figure out what is the focus of your organization first. If you are lost, what is your organization's intent? And that's very simple.

Ajay Pangarkar: There's a mission statement. Successful, all successful organizations have mission statements. And in that mission statement, And people say, well, that's very high level, very strategic. Yeah, I get it. But within that mission statement, it's very, if you look at the elements, if it's done well, you can back that into the operations because each of those elements and mission statements speak to some operational element within the organization.

Ajay Pangarkar: And once you break it down into the operational elements, you know where you're focusing their efforts. And where [00:19:00] the emphasis is of their intent to the organization. And once you figure that out, what their focus is, well, now you can now then go back to what I just said before. Go to those operational areas that are under that kind of pressure and say, okay, you have objectives to meet.

Ajay Pangarkar: Let's talk about that, right? Either way, whether you don't know and that's where you need to find your focus, or you do know and you go see these people. In school, if your teacher told you, you had a test tomorrow, you know, most of us would freak out. You know, because we'd say, Oh my God, there's a test tomorrow.

Ajay Pangarkar: What do I need to know? How do I pass this test? But if a teacher said, well, I'm going to give you all the answers, you'd be a little more relieved, right? You say, okay, and now I have all the answers. You just didn't ask. You don't know what questions you're going to ask, but you have all the answers. And this is what happens in organizations.

Ajay Pangarkar: Every organization that is functioning well, have some Form a performance framework and this performance framework is [00:20:00] throughout organization as stems from the mission. As I mentioned before, it breaks it down operationally and within that performance framework, the lower you go, or and I say lower, I don't mean that derogatory, you know, as you get more granular within your organization, the more precise those metrics become.

Ajay Pangarkar: So if I go to you In internal operations, like I would use a simple example, let's say manufacturing, and they have, and their performance framework and their scorecard says they have to produce so many widgets per hour, per day, per week, per month, and they have metrics on quality standards and, and, and speed and whatever reliability.

Ajay Pangarkar: I know those metrics are key to making that manufacturing department successful. So now I have the answers. Now I have to go discuss with the operations and say, okay, what's going on here? You have a defect quality rate of, you know, maximum of 8%, but you're right now at 10. So, I know there's an issue here.

Ajay Pangarkar: How can we, how can I help you and help these employees [00:21:00] improve? Now there's two answers I'm going to come back to. It's either going to be a process issue or a people issue. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. But those are the two issues that usually come up. Process issues are not your domain.

Ajay Pangarkar: They have to fix the process, but when they fix the process, it usually affects the people. So, when people are affected, that's where we step in, right? We have to now help them understand the new process. And so now, as soon as we know that metric of bringing it from 10 to 8, that's their goal for the next 6 months or year, even if we move that needle down to 9, we're still going to look like heroes, right?

Ajay Pangarkar: Because that is a key metric That we are able to influence and I said the word influence because we cannot forget that learning is just one component of many other elements in the organization affecting that operational activity, right? So, We'll do our best and we have to understand the interconnections of how we're [00:22:00] impacting it and affecting other areas, but we're one element that can help change that, but we need to work with the other elements to make sure that we have a holistic approach to it and make sure they can move that needle from 10 to nine to eight, even to seven.

Ajay Pangarkar: And I'm making a very simple example, but this actually happened to me working with a client. We actually moved the needle there. They're, I can't remember the numbers, but similar to what I just shared. It was like 10 and then we brought it down to five and it's like, The productivity improvement, the savings, the intangibles like customer satisfaction, the, you know, the reduction in, uh, returns and complaints and all this kind of stuff that amounts to a lot.

Ajay Pangarkar: And that learning department became an integral component to that manufacturing department becoming better. So, the answers are there. You just need to ask the questions and ask the right questions. And understand what those answers are. I hope that makes sense. 

Susan Cort: It does. I loved in the, uh, the recent article that you authored, uh, where you gave the analogy about, uh, driving a [00:23:00] car without a dashboard.

Susan Cort: And I thought that, that's really a good analogy about, uh, you know, if you're not, you know, listening to the metrics and listening to the learners, uh, that this is how your training could evolve. Talk a little bit about that and, and how people can formalize this process so it can be more of a proactive, strategic process instead of a reactionary one.

Ajay Pangarkar: Yeah, that article was in, uh, just to mention it was in training industry, um, And it's free for people to access. So if they, they want to read it, um, but actually it goes back to my days when I first learned, learned to drive and my father bought me my first car and I would ignore all the gauges on there and the check engine light would come up and he would say to me, there's a check engine light coming up, you got to do something about it.

Ajay Pangarkar: Well, until something happens, I'm going to ignore it. Right. Kind of thing. But. In reality, you know, we, I don't know if we all drive, right? So, if we drive our car or watching the speedometers, we're not breaking the law, right? We're, we're watching the gas, so we're not, we have sufficient fuel in the car to, to get where we want to go.

Ajay Pangarkar: You know, I have a [00:24:00] classic car and I watch the temperature gauge constantly because that thing goes too high. I got to stop and figure out how to cool this car down, you know, so I'm watching a bunch of things to make sure that I'm achieving the goal I want to achieve to get to my destination. And I think, uh, one more thing, and I hate, and I don't want to come down too hard on training and development because I do admire training and development.

Ajay Pangarkar: I think it's a fantastic function within an organization and even more important than ever before. But one thing for training and development people, unfortunately, they also don't check the gauges within the organization, but they also drive blindfold. So they're driving a car, not checking the gauges and driving blindfolded.

Ajay Pangarkar: And those two things combined is why training gets such a bad rap among decision makers. And I always say that, um, it goes back, I might be jumping around here, but that analogy of the car sort of equates to when people say, well, Ajay, my budget, they just cut my budget, you know, [00:25:00] so they don't think we're important.

Ajay Pangarkar: I said, no, you're looking at it all wrong. I said, you need to look at yourself in the mirror because you're basically, you're not watching the gauges. You're not watching the performance metrics. You're not adding any value to the organization. And it's not personal when they cut your budget. It means that you're not adding value.

Ajay Pangarkar: So they're taking that money and putting it elsewhere. That's adding value to the organization because they have scarce resources. So it's not personal to you that they're cutting your budget is that you didn't hold yourself accountable to what they need. And they look at me and they say, well, you know, they get really negative and resistant about it.

Ajay Pangarkar: And I say, look, I worked for an organization that invests more money in downtimes. I worked for one major electronic company. Um, that we all have their products probably in our desk. I won't mention names, but that company, when they saw the down cycle, money was going, more money was going into the learning and development space because they wanted to skill up their people for the ups, the uptick, uh, when the economy [00:26:00] turned or when the cycle changed or whatever it may be, that their people were ready to go, but that wasn't by accident.

Ajay Pangarkar: It was just, they just didn't have money. They had learning fully integrated. Learning was fully integrated into the culture. So, they weren't an afterthought. They weren't like, you know, we need training now. Training was always in the discussions and always looking at being part of the conceptualization of the strategy and the operations.

Ajay Pangarkar: And I think that answers your question, Susan. That might be a long way around it, but you want to look at the gauges and you want to read with a blindfold and you want to be part of the conversation. And that's really where you can add value. 

Mason Scuderi: Yeah, it's a really compelling message, and I think a timely message as well.

Ajay Pangarkar: Well, you know, Mason, today, like I said, basically there's three things that leaders look at, at all levels, depending on what level of granularity. Keeps things simple, they look at how to manage risk, how to manage change, and how to manage performance. Again, these three things are not mutually exclusive.

Ajay Pangarkar: Everything that concerns every leader within an [00:27:00] organization is framed with, uh, around these three things or a combination of these things, right? Because you make, whenever you decide to make change, and again, change is sometimes forced upon organizations most of the time nowadays. There's risk, right?

Ajay Pangarkar: And they have to mitigate the risk. And both of those things together are hand in hand. But as soon as you have change, you're now forcing people to look at things differently and learn new things, right? And it affects the performance of the organization. So it's always those three elements that Those senior leaders, and that's just senior leaders, but all leaders of an organization, depending on the level of granularity, look at.

Ajay Pangarkar: And so if I were to tell anybody today in learning and development, speak to them on those three levels, because now you're speaking their language. 

Susan Cort: I know we have just scratched the surface of your new book, but we want to let people know where they can learn more, where they can pick up a copy to dive even deeper into this topic.

Ajay Pangarkar: Well, let me say, first of all, I have [00:28:00] no hidden agenda here. Um, and I don't want to undermine anybody else. Um, I follow basically the Kirkpatrick methodology within the book. So Kirkpatrick's over one to four. I actually work it backwards. And so I don't have any vested interest in the methodology, but at the end of the day, You don't even have to buy my book because everything I'm saying is found in every text that any business person has studied.

Ajay Pangarkar: So every, all of my training is in every textbook and managerial accounting, finance, and all, all that stuff I'm talking about is not Ajay saying it. It's not my methodology. This is part of the financial standards, the accounting standards, the strategic decision-making process. And so you don't have to buy this book.

Ajay Pangarkar: I do encourage you to do so, but you don't have to buy it. You can get, you know, if you're in, you took a business class somewhere, go pull out a managerial accounting textbook that will speak to everything you need to know that I just said. And I'm saying that only because I'm [00:29:00] afraid people buy into certain methodologies as shortcuts, and there are certain methodologies out there in training development that are very dangerous.

Ajay Pangarkar: And should not be applied because they hold no credibility and they're not even valid in the real world. So that's one thing I would say to people that don't believe me. Find what I say and verify what I say. Second, where you can find a book, of course, uh, you know, I'm published through Kogan page and I think I've offered your audience a, um, a discount code, I think hopefully you'll share in the podcast show notes that they can get for 20 percent discount at Kogan page.

Ajay Pangarkar: com. And, um, I believe, I think they still have free shipping in it too, so if they want to take advantage of that, I encourage them to do so, and it's not that thick, so it's a good book, it's not expensive to buy, plus a 20 percent discount, I think you'll get a lot out of it, but again, don't stop there, like I said, the information is out there, we're learners, we tell people to learn, we should be learning ourselves as [00:30:00] well, so become more business literate when you're out there talking to your students.

Susan Cort: It all makes sense. And, uh, we're all, even though you don't necessarily want to sell the book, we will help you sell the book. We'll put the link to the book as well as some of your recent articles in the show notes of the podcast for sure. 

Ajay Pangarkar: And by the way, there's a tons of articles out there that you can get through TrainingIndustry.

Ajay Pangarkar: com. I know you, we all enjoy that. We go to the training industry conference together. That's where we met. Absolutely. And it's a great conference. Um, and they have a great publication. I have a feature article. Uh, out there on, on learning metrics. Um, and I have over 25 years, I've written thousands of articles.

Ajay Pangarkar: So, I hope people just Google my name and they'll find some free stuff out there. 

Susan Cort: Thank you very much for joining us today. It was great to see you. 

Ajay Pangarkar: Thank you, Susan. Thank you, Mason, for having me. I appreciate being here. 

Mason Scuderi: Great to see you, Ajay.

Susan Cort: Mason, Ajay really had some good reminders about the importance of learning metrics. 

Mason Scuderi: Yeah, absolutely. Susan, [00:31:00] uh, the message from Ajay and his new book on learning metrics are a great reminder. For us all to stay focused on the KPIs of the organization and ultimately that's where our learning efforts need to flow back up to.

Mason Scuderi: So, at d'Vinci we always advise our clients about the best ways to handle their learning data through SCORM conformance, proper integration into their learning management system and reporting on that data and ultimately that data has to flow back to organizational metrics. So, a great reminder. 

Susan Cort: Absolutely.

Susan Cort: Thanks, Mason. And special thanks to our guest, Ajay Pangarkar, for joining us today. If you have an idea for a topic or a guest, please reach out to us at poweredbylearningatdvinci.com. And don't forget that you can subscribe to Powered by Learning wherever you listen to your podcasts.