Building Accessible Workplaces with EnAble Learning

What does it take to scale disability inclusion across an entire workforce? In this episode, National Organization on Disability leaders Beth Sirull and Sara Walsh explain how the EnAble Learning digital training system helps organizations embed inclusion, adaptability, and workforce readiness into their everyday operations.

Show Notes:

Beth Sirull and Sara Walsh of the National Organization on Disability share how their new EnAble Learning courses are helping organizations of all sizes create welcoming, productive workplaces through engaging, accessible online training. Here are some of their key points:

• Disability inclusion is a business imperative, not philanthropy. Beth Sirull shared that companies fully integrating disability inclusion hire twice as many people with disabilities—and promote five times as many—demonstrating measurable business impact.
• Most disabilities are invisible—and often undisclosed. Beth emphasized that the majority of disabilities are not visible, and disclosure rates are low due to stigma, making proactive inclusion essential.
• Scalable, on-demand training increases access and impact. Sara Walsh explained that EnAble Learning was created to make high-quality disability inclusion training accessible to organizations of all sizes, especially those unable to support in-person sessions.
• Engagement and relevance were non-negotiable in the digital experience. Sara noted that the courses were intentionally designed to be interactive, practical, and manager-focused—avoiding “click-through” compliance training in favor of meaningful learning.
• Inclusion benefits everyone—and anyone can join the disability community at any time. Sara pointed out that disability is a community anyone may become part of at any stage of life, reinforcing why inclusive practices matter across the entire workforce.

Learn more about National Organization on Disability's enAble Learning

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Transcript

Susan Cort: [00:00:00] With approximately one out of every four U.S. workers reporting as having a disability, National Organization on Disability is turning to online training to help build accessible and welcoming workplaces for all.

Beth Sirull: We are here to get this out as widely and as deeply as we possibly can, because ultimately impact is what we measure. That's our bottom line. Our bottom line is an impact. Bottom line, how many people are taking this training and how many people, as a result, are treating their colleagues different, their employees different, and are providing opportunities to people with disabilities to really do their best work.

That's Beth Sirull, CEO of National Organization on Disability. Beth and COO Sara Walsh join d'Vinci's Angeline Evans and me to talk about their organization's new EnAble Learning courses and how the training is improving the workforce experience for everyone - next on Powered [00:01:00] by Learning. 

Susan Cort: Joining me now is d’Vinci Client Solutions Consultant Angeline Evans and our guest from the National Organization on Disability President and CEO Beth Sirull and Chief Operating Officer Sarah Walsh.

Welcome to Powered by Learning.

Angeline Evans: Thank you both for joining us today.

Beth Sirull: Thank you so much for having us. We're excited to be here.

Sara Walsh: Yes. Thank you. Looking forward to the conversation.

Susan Cort: We are too. Sarah and Beth, thank you. For those who may not be familiar with your organization, Beth, explain a little bit about what the National Organization on Disability is all about.

Beth Sirull: So the National Organization on Disability is working towards the day when every person with a disability, regardless of whether that disability is a physical disability, a mental health issue, a neurodivergence, um, we are working towards the day when every person with a disability has access to a quality job that enables them to realize their full potential. And enables them to be compensated fairly for [00:02:00] their efforts. Um, and we work on what I would call the demand side. That is we work with corporations and other employers to ensure that their talent acquisition processes and their talent managing processes accommodating and inclusive of people with disabilities.

And it's important right off the bat to recognize uh, when you look at physical disabilities, neurodivergence and mental health. Something approximating 40% of the workforce is affected by disability, and so when you talk about disability inclusion, you're really talking about enabling your workforce to be maximally productive and to hire the best people and leverage them for the best impact on your organization. And so we do that through training and education, consulting, uh, thought leadership, um, storytelling. [00:03:00] and as you both know, a lot, uh, having to do with training, which is how we've become, involved with d’Vinci. We do feel strongly that disability inclusion in, in the employment arena in organizations has to, it, it has to infiltrate the whole organization.

And so scaling that knowledge and that training to enable everybody to understand disability, is really, you know, critical to our mission.

Susan Cort: And Beth, just to level set for our listeners who may not be aware, disability doesn't just mean the disabilities we see. When you're counting those numbers of how many people in the workforce have a disability, it goes way beyond what we see as a disability.

Beth Sirull: I, that's why I say it might be a physical disability, which some of or low vision or use someone who, uh, uses a wheelchair or a cane or. [00:04:00] Um, you know, that's very physically obvious, but there are many physical disabilities, many diseases, diabetes and Crohn's and cancer and many, many physical disabilities that, um, that are not visible.

And then of course, mental health disabilities and neurodivergence, um, are not visible. And so, yes, we, the majority of disabilities. No one can see, and

Susan Cort: Right.

Beth Sirull: Why we say you, you may not realize that people you're working with have a disability and you yourself may be somebody with a disability who never really identified as such.

Because historically in the United States, when people hear disability, they think wh. And so when someone is, um, struggling, struggling with a major depressive disorder or someone is on the spectrum or ADHD, they may not [00:05:00] realize that that is in effect a disability, and that there are very legitimate accommodations that will help them do their work better and will enable their employer to to leverage their skills.

I mean, it's a win-win for the, for the employer and for the employee.

Susan Cort: Absolutely. Especially because you have to think too, sometimes employers don't even know where an employee might be dealing with a disability, even a temporary one. So making sure you're making sure you're inclusive right out of the gate, you're going to, you're gonna have that win on both sides.

Beth Sirull: The disclosure rate for people with disabilities is much lower than the actual rate, and that, you know, generally has to do with that. People are afraid to stand up and say, I have this issue. You know, like, I, I need to see my psychiatrist during business hours twice a month because I need my meds. or I need certain things because I'm, I'm ADHD, or, um, [00:06:00] you know, there are, people are afraid of the stigma. Um, and in many cases they've seen people who have a, a visible disability. treated differently and they're, they're gonna go, oh, I, I don't wanna be included. You know, I don't wanna go there. When in fact, for an employer to just openly be inclusive, um, people with disabilities from the get-go, enables them to hire, uh, the best people and leverage them for, you know, the best outcomes.

Um, I'll just throw some data out there really quickly. Um, we. The National Organization on Disability has collected data from employers for many years, and we have a data set of 257, primarily large, but not exclusively large companies, over a four-year period. And, and every company in the dataset contributed data. Um, more than once so that we can see changes over time. And what we find is that [00:07:00] companies that fully integrate disability inclusion into their operations, as you would expect, they will hire twice as many people with disabilities as firms that have not, um, integrated disability inclusion. What is so striking is that those same companies. They'll hire two times as many people with disabilities, but they'll promote five times as many people with disabilities. And what that says is when you are disability inclusive, you are hiring the best people and you are enabling them to succeed and have the best impact on your business. And we take promotions as a proxy for. impactful employee because if they're not a, a positively impactful employee, they don't get promoted. Um, and so we really see the bene the, the business benefits. Um, years ago, disability inclusion was considered sort of a nice to have and, and a, and something that corporate foundations funded and that [00:08:00] was philanthropy and the like.

And now we really see that this is a business imperative. It affects. Too much of the workforce. No business, no employer can be successful if they are ignoring the needs of 40% of their workforce.

Susan Cort: Absolutely. That's why training and education are so important.

Beth Sirull: You got it.

Angeline Evans: Yeah, those are incredible statistics. so I know d’Vinci team has been so honored to partner with the NOD team on building the Enable Learning platform, which is a new way for organizations and individuals to access nods training on demand. So I wanna talk more about that today with our listeners.

And so let's start by just talking about what inspired the idea or if there were any needs or gaps that, um, it's really designed to address.

Sara Walsh: Yeah, thanks for that question, Angeline. you know, NOD has been around for almost 40 years and we have long been a leader in, um, [00:09:00] delivering instructor led in-person training around. Topics related to the intersection of people with disabilities and the workforce. Um, we have delivered instructor led training to Fortune 500 companies. Um, and we have some of the foremost content expert experts on our team. But what we realized, especially in a post COVID world, is that in-person training where you, especially, especially in industries with frontline workers, industries like manufacturing and healthcare, uh, and retail, that it's just really not feasible to take people off the floor. Um, there's just a huge cost for organizations to always have this training be delivered in person. And so as we see kind of the world change towards more remote work, towards more virtual training, you know, we realized that we really needed to provide a product that enhanced access to this sort of training.

As Beth mentioned, you know, the business imperatives are [00:10:00] clear, but we really wanted to provide. Product that was scalable and that really could drive impact. You know, we are really driven by impact. We're a nonprofit. That's our number one goal, and so having a product that is available on demand, that is customizable, that can be done in bite-sized chunks, we realize that we'd be able to reach a much larger,

Beth Sirull: The other thing that this enables us to do is to serve businesses of all sizes that many of the smaller employers cannot afford to hire in-person trainers even virtually. It's just too expensive. Whereas when you, when you go with the on demand training, people can do it, you, you buy it per seat, you know, per license seat and people can do it in their own time. And, and so it's, it's more easily distributed and it's more affordable and, you know, uh, about half the workforce in the United States works for small business or smaller organizations. And, um, [00:11:00] we need to make sure that people with disabilities. successful in those organizations as well as in the name brand corporations that we all know and love. And so this enables us to fill the gap that Sarah's identifying, um, in terms of getting it out into large corporations. But it also enables us to provide this to smaller organizations.

Angeline Evans: It's an incredible value that I think all all of the organizations are gonna see. So when we take in-person training and, and bring it to online training, it's a process. Uh, what did you wanna make sure you got right in the digital version? Or what were you nervous about? Um, because historically you were delivering this in person.

Sara Walsh: Yeah, that's a great question and look like there are still benefits to in-person. I think we all know that even though we've all been living in a remote and virtual environment for a long time, we

Angeline Evans: Mm-hmm.

Sara Walsh: are still. Benefits to having that face-to-face interaction. However, we believed that we could create a training [00:12:00] in partnership with d’Vinci that replicated those benefits.

So one of those being the training has to be engaging.

Sara Walsh: We are not interested in providing training that is boring, that's compliance-oriented, that's just a click through, right? We've all been there, we've all had those kind of trainings in our workplace. Um, we really wanted it to be engaging and relevant.

Like those are, those are kind of the two most important things. It has to be engaging. So that means, multimedia, different types of videos, styles, um, questions, knowledge checks along the way, things that make sure that that participants are following along, and then making sure the content is relevant.

So, we, again, like this comes from our expertise of just being uniquely positioned in this field and working for so long with corporations. We understand what businesses care about, and that can change over time and our ability to be nimble and to add content that is hyper relevant to what businesses are facing right now.

I think that's a key issue. And the final [00:13:00] thing that I'll say in terms of a differentiation is you know, we have scoured all kinds of trading platforms from big to small, and what you'll find with disability related content is that if it exists at all, it is highly surface level. So most disability content is either very compliance oriented or just highly surface level.

Sara Walsh: And so our goal is to really bring practical tools for managers in particular to understand how to manage a workforce. That, like Beth said, probably 40% at least have disabilities. So we want it to be practical. We want the content to be relevant, and we want the delivery method to be highly engaging.

Angeline Evans: So something we look at d’Vinci, that was a wonderful, uh, explanation, Sara, when you take that online training and you're, or the in-person training and you're scaling it to that broader audience for self-paced learning, it can sometimes be difficult to maintain the integrity of your content because you're [00:14:00] trying to reach everyone, right? You're not, you're not targeting the organization that you're specifically delivering that in-person training to. I'd love to hear from your perspective and your experience in this process, um, how did you feel that was accomplished?

Beth Sirull: I will take that one. Um, well, you know, d’Vinci was asked a lot of really good questions along the way that really forced us to think about. You know, what are we really trying to get across here? One of the things about in-person training, you know, is that you have a chance to, to, that people can speak their feelings and, and we do in the, um, in the modules have opportunities for people to really type in their feedback. And, um, we can provide to companies or departments that are interested, kind of a discussion guide for them to get together afterwards. And really talk about that so that it, it can have some of those same, I mean, there's really [00:15:00] a team building element to it if an organization wants to use it that way. And as Sara said, there's a lot of different, uh, kinds of video, different kinds of questions, um, you know, opportunities to test knowledge so that it is really engaging. Um, some of it is video and, and, and some of it is animation.

Angeline Evans: mm-hmm.

Beth Sirull: So you, you, you're kind of drawn into it and when you, when you do the video or the, the, um, animation, you are simulating real world experiences that people can relate to and then they can, you know, type in and, and, and share how that is for them.

And then, you know, that, that gets a lot of the in-person part. I do think, and we will, you know, we encourage companies. to, you know, to use the opportunity to get people together as 10 or 15 [00:16:00] people and, and have a, a department and have a, a team building conversation because it is an opportunity for people to really share their vulnerabilities and that's what builds trust and psychological safety in a workplace. And any opportunity for people, especially leaders to say, you know, I did this training and this is how it really impacted me and this is how I feel. That's gonna build a lot of trust with people on the team. And so I think though that combination of elements, it being engaging, opportunity for people to provide feedback, and then the opportunity for organizations. Or even, even, uh, colleagues to just go out to lunch and, and share. It really completes that circle. I don't know. Sara, do you wanna add anything on that?

Sara Walsh: No, I think that's right. I think, you know, the training was in a way to encourage discussion outside of the trainings. Like for me personally, the best trainings I've ever [00:17:00] taken are the ones that I talked about with my colleagues afterward. 

Sara Walsh: And so, I would try to encourage that engagement and, and just by having thought pro provoking content that feels. Applicable to what you're doing every day.

Beth Sirull: Right. And it also, we hope, um, will bring people, and, and, and empower them. Those conversations empower people to stand up and say, you know, I could really use X and, you know, the average accommodation costs. Two 50, very, very inexpensive. These are not monetary issues, not financial issues. They're, um, sometimes organizational or, um. You know, kind of a physical arrangement of furniture and offices and placement and schedule and, agendas and just ways that meetings are conducted, things that are good for everybody and really tend to be free, um, can really add to the inclusive environment in an organization for [00:18:00] everybody. And we haven't noted yet, which we should. Disability is one of those things that does not discriminate. When you work in disability inclusion, you're looking at issues of gender and issues of race and sexual orientation and every other kind of diversity, because disability, it, it impacts all of us. there's, know,

Angeline Evans: Mm-hmm.

Beth Sirull: There's a lot of diversity within the disability community.

Sara Walsh: It is also a community that you can join in any time in your

Beth Sirull: That's right.

Sara Walsh: sometimes,

Sara Walsh: Things can happen in your life and you know, all of a sudden you're, you find yourself in a position of having a different type of need than other people.

Beth Sirull: And, and often even, you know, people who have one kind of disability. I, I think I'm on my own life experience. You know, I came to the disability space in, you know, through the mental health and neurodiversity world. Um, having [00:19:00] had significant mental health issues of my own and, and having a son who is neurodivergent and also has struggled with mental health issues. But here I am, I'm getting older um, I'm aging in, I'm aging into some, you know, into some disabilities. Um, I can't say it's fun, but it happens to most of us eventually, and people are staying in the workforce longer. is becoming a bigger and bigger issue in the workforce.

Angeline Evans: And the online modules, don't, you know, I love how you explain this. They're, they're not meant to be taken in silos. They are cohort based for teams so that you can have that discussion because that is when the most meaningful moments happen. And it is a community and it is for everyone. Even if you don't identify as a, as having a disability right now, it's an important conversation and you very likely know someone that has a disability. Firsthand. as, uh, folks have been taking, [00:20:00] um, modules, have you gathered any early feedback or anything you've been hearing so far?

Beth Sirull: Um, it is early feedback 'cause as you know, we are still in development. I did actually, I was meaning to tell you all this separately. I was on the call, on a call last week with a vice president of learning and development for a major professional services organization, professional employment, A PEO, a professional employment organization, large company that, that serves employers across the country.

And, they're looking at including this in their, in their catalog, our enAble Learning, in their catalog of, um, of a courses. And the first thing the VP of Learning and Development said to me was, your instructional design is excellent.

Susan Cort: Oh,

Beth Sirull: great.

Angeline Evans: so great.

Beth Sirull: You said, I watched, I did a couple of the modules and, and the quality [00:21:00] is there. Um, and, um, so that, that was wonderful. Um, and then,

Susan Cort: thanks for sharing that. That's great. Yeah.

Beth Sirull: Um, and then, you know, other people are just, you know, it's, it's fun and cute and engaging and informative and short. So like, if you're, you know, like you don't have to do an hour course all at one time. There are modules you can use your, you know, you could be on the train with your earbuds on your phone through a 10-minute module, on your way home or on your way to work, or before you go to bed at night, or, You know, something like that. And it's not a stressful undertaking or anything like that's kind of entertaining, and certainly engaging and, and you can do it on your mobile device, which just means that it is liter, it is truly on demand. Whenever you know, whenever you wanna take. So we, you know, we envision employers saying, hey, we need everybody to do this, you know, by [00:22:00] 30 days from now and then we're gonna have a conversation, um, or, you know, in a department or something like that.

Um, but so far, um, and as Sara said, there's just not a lot out there that's really looking at disability inclusion, at disability, awareness at mental health, neurodivergence, at um, issues. You know, AI is, is the big thing. There are a lot of disability inclusion issues in making sure there's no bias in AI and making sure that it is accessible to everyone.

Susan Cort: Beth, there are probably a lot of organizations listening who are thinking, we need something like this, but they don't, don't know where to start. What advice would you give to organizations about the importance of this training and the affordability of it too? For people who might be concerned they can't afford something like this.

Beth Sirull: It is per seat. And so depending on how many seats you're buying, it [00:23:00] ranges from 25 to $50 a seat. So, you know, if you're a 10 person small business, that's $500. That's pretty doable. 

Beth Sirull: Or if you're a department in a large corporation and, and you know, you, you wanna check it out for your team and then, you know, we obviously want you to share that with everyone else in your organization.

But that's a, you can start very small. Um, so it is, it's, it's very affordable. You know, the National Organization on Disability is a nonprofit organization. We are kind of a nonprofit professional services firm. Our clients are businesses and other employers. Um, but we are here to maximize our impact within the constraints that we have to be financially, self-sufficient. So we, you know, can't give it away 'cause we gotta pay the, we gotta pay you guys and we gotta pay our team and, you know, our, our team needs compute. You know, we have overhead, we have expenses, um, but within the constraint of that, we have to be financially, self-sufficient. [00:24:00] Um, we are here to get this out as widely and as deeply as we possibly can, because ultimately impact is what we measure. That's our bottom line. Our bottom line is an impact. Bottom line, how many people are taking this training and how many people, as a result, are treating their colleagues different, their employees different, and are providing opportunities to people with disabilities to really do their best work.

Angeline Evans: I am so excited about all of these modules. Would you mind walking us through some of the topics that you covered?

Sara Walsh: Yes,

Angeline Evans: Yeah.

Sara Walsh: So we are launching enAble Learning with four topics initially, and like I said, we definitely plan to roll out more and we plan to adjust based on, what. Issues businesses are facing at the time. But the first four topics are, uh, the first one is just kind of a disability inclusion, disability awareness 1-0 -1 course.

So this is just really basic for folks who haven't been in this world [00:25:00] before. And I can tell you, I mean, I've worked in the public sector a long time. I've done a lot of trainings on a variety of things like race and gender, socioeconomic status and I, when I came to National Organization on Disability, some of the most basic concepts were brand new to me. So while that first course is basic, it is still not information that is widely known. So it's really, really super critical. The second course is around, uh, mental health in the workplace and managing team members in the age of rising mental health challenges. This is so critical. I mean, we have seen rates of mental health challenges skyrocket, especially post COVID, especially for, um, subpopulations like frontline workers.

And this course is really targeted at managers and helping them have tools, um, and resources to be able to manage their teams effectively and to increase. Productivity, um, mental health challenges can be a large, um, driver of what's [00:26:00] called presenteeism absenteeism as well. The third course is around neurodiversity and managing Neurodiverse employees.

Um, this is a huge topic for organizations right now. We see lots of large companies like consulting firms or accounting firms, specifically launching programs for Neurodiverse employees. So this can be a huge asset to those sorts of efforts. Um, and then the last one is around digital. Accessibility. Um, again, just really relevant topic.

A lot of states are rolling out rules for organizations to abide by when it comes to digital accessibility. And companies just don't have the expertise or the knowledge to understand, um, how digital accessibility impacts employees with disabilities on a day-to-day basis. It goes beyond just, you know, priding all texts on a picture. Um, there's just some real strategies you can implement that can make your employees more productive.

Angeline Evans: It absolutely does, and all of the modules and the platform are built for accessibility. So along with what Beth [00:27:00] mentioned, that you can access them anywhere because they are shorter and shorter in format, and you can access them on the train or um, wherever you're located. They're programmed and developed for accessibility, following the best practices to be compliant. Um, and we can link to it. Um, in this, in this episode. We've done an episode in the past that details out all of the accessibility things you need to keep in mind when you're building online learning or a digital tool. And it's just so important, um,

Beth Sirull: Hundred percent.

Angeline Evans: taking disability training like we're discussing here. It's so important that what you're putting out there as learning and development professionals is fully accessible for any of your learners that are gonna be accessing it.

Susan Cort: Angeline in addition to that sheet that we'll put a link in the show notes, of course. We'll also put a link to, uh, to more information about the training that's offered through National Organization on Disability, in case any of our listeners wanna learn more.

Beth Sirull: Awesome.

Angeline Evans: Thank you, so much.

Beth Sirull: I also, you know, like Sara, I've a, I've had a long career in the pub in nonprofit [00:28:00] work. Um, NO D's, the third nonprofit that I'm the chief executive of, and I, I have struggled with mental health issues my whole life it, you know, it really helped me back early in my career and I would never have stood up at work and said, Hey, I gotta go blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, and. So that disability awareness that Sara, the, the disability one-on-one that Sara was talking about. What I've seen as I've come to NOD is that for people, um, who maybe have lived with a physical disability all their life, but really have not experienced neurodiversity or experienced significant mental health challenges, learning from me and I'm learning from them. And, um, even if you have a disability and you, and you feel like you are, you know, well versed in disability, odds are you're not well versed in every disability or every kind of disability. And so there really is value in [00:29:00] that diversity 1-0-1, no matter who you are.

Angeline Evans: Mm-hmm.

Beth Sirull: Then of course, you know, the specific courses are very, you know, very, um, important and we look forward to adding, um, as Sara said, you know, to adding, to, um, adding more courses to and in the future.

And, you know, Sara and I have both, uh, talked about before we came to NOD, we had never worked with a, a blind or low vision colleague and now our, our colleague in the C-suite of, um, NOD, uh, is blind. We have both said, wow, you know, wouldn't it have just been nice if I could have had a 15-minute little tutorial on what it, you know, I'm working with somebody. Who is vision impaired, um, you know, to just understand what to do and what not to do. And so we do sort of envision shorter [00:30:00] disability specific, courses. Um, we envision, um, looking at specific employment issues around disability, um, and, you know, d different aspects of you know, a deep dive on accommodations, a deep dive on inclusive hiring, on, on how to write a, an inclusive job description, which really lends itself to skills-based hiring, which is a very big, um,

Angeline Evans: Yes, yes.

Beth Sirull: movement now that we really support. Um, as when you're looking at someone really for the skills that they have, whether or not they use a wheelchair or they, um, you know, have. You know, pick your disease is irrelevant. Um, and so we're really looking forward, we're, we're looking forward to getting more back feedback from people as they take the courses and as they use the platform. and then really seeing. Where the hot [00:31:00] topics, the next hot topics are and the only other thing I really wanna add for your listeners, if you are a part of a large corporation, we are licensing the content for you as a not by seat, but as a at the courses. All four courses can be licensed for a company's own and internal learning management system. And then if you are a smaller business and you or a smaller organization, um, you can use our learning management system and just buy, X number of seats. And of course, within large corporations, if you just wanna try it before you recommend to your training and development department that they bring it in for your internal LMS, you can, you can access it on a, on a per seat basis, um, on our LMS.

So we're, we've really designed it. So no matter where you are as an employer, where you fit on the employment spectrum, large, small, public, private, nonprofit, there's [00:32:00] a way for you to access this material affordably.

Susan Cort: And very appropriately. I would say that sounds very inclusive and accommodating for all of you to do that for.

Beth Sirull: It's, we are trying very hard. That is our goal.

Susan Cort: This was wonderful to hear the two of you talk about this. And Angeline, I know you and the team have been working hard with National Organization on disability and uh, I'm excited to see it all rolled out and to see what comes in the next steps in the future.

Beth Sirull: Awesome.

Angeline Evans: Yep.

Beth Sirull: Thank you so much for having us. We really appreciate it.

Sara Walsh: Thank you very much. It was a pleasure.

Angeline Evans: Thank you.

My thanks to d'Vinci's Angeline Evans, and our guests Beth Sirull and Sara Walsh from National Organization on Disability. If you have an idea for a topic of guest, please reach out at Powered by Learning at dvinci.com. And, don't forget that you can subscribe to Powered by Learning wherever you listen to your podcasts.