Fail, Fight, Finish: Leading Through Trust and Change

Leadership is built through conversations, trust, and the willingness to learn from failure. In this episode, author Gregory Archbold discusses the lessons behind his book, Fail, Fight, Finish. From the power of listening first to creating buy-in during change, he shares practical leadership strategies that every manager, mentor, and learning professional can put into practice.

 
Show Notes:
Author Gregory Archbold discusses trust, mentorship, communication, and leading through change. His key points include:

• Leadership begins with listening. Great leaders ask questions, create space for others to contribute, and speak last to build trust and develop future leaders.
• Mentorship is earned, not assigned. Strong mentoring relationships grow over time through curiosity, consistency, and a genuine commitment to learning.
• Create shared ownership during change. Leaders gain buy-in by involving people in developing solutions rather than presenting fully formed decisions.
• Challenge processes that no longer serve a purpose. Don't continue doing something simply because "we've always done it that way." Regularly evaluate whether processes still create value.
• Never become "content lazy." Leadership growth requires continuous learning through reading, mentoring, reflection, and seeking feedback—especially after receiving a promotion.

Learn more about Gregory Archbold's book, Fail, Fight, Finish: Leadership Lessons You Don't Learn in the Classroom.

Powered by Learning earned Awards of Distinction in the Podcast/Audio and Business Podcast categories from The Communicator Awards and a Gold and Silver Davey Award. The podcast is also named to Feedspot's Top 40 L&D podcasts and Training Industry’s Ultimate L&D Podcast Guide.

Learn more about d'Vinci at www.dvinci.com.
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Transcript

Susan Cort: Leaders who make their team members part of the process of change may see greater adoption.

Greg Archbold: Once people part of the solution, they'll have buy-in, and buy-in is where you believe and you understand like, "Hey, this is not just boss's plan.

We sat in, the conference room and we came up with this and I'm believing in this." 

Susan Cort: That's Gregory Archbold, author of Fail, Fight, Finish: Leadership Lessons You Don't Learn in the Classroom. Greg talks about creating buy-in through shared leadership and change.

He joins d'Vinci's Jenny Fedullo and me next on Powered by Learning. 

Announcer: Powered by Learning is brought to you by d'Vinci Interactive. d'Vinci's approach to learning is grounded in 30 years of innovation and expertise. We use proven strategies and leading technology to develop solutions that empower learners to improve quality and boost performance. Learn more at [00:01:00] dvinci.com.

Susan Cort: Joining me today is d'Vinci Director Learning Experience, Jenny Fedullo, and our guest, Gregory Archbold, the author of Fail, Fight, Finish: Leadership Lessons You Don't Learn in the Classroom.

Greg, it's so nice to meet you, and I'm happy to be a part of this reunion for you and Jenny today.

Greg Archbold: I know. This will be the first time in my history of doing either TV or podcast interviews where I actually know the person interviewing me. And she knows things, from years, years ago when I was just a little munion.

Susan Cort: Well, that, I think we should just

Greg Archbold: this is interesting

Susan Cort: We should just shift the whole podcast interview right now to what Greg was like in high school. Jenny, talk to us about how the two of you know each other.

Jenny Fedullo: Well, we-- I don't know, did we go to junior high together? I'm not sure, but we definitely were in high school together and graduated in 1988.

Greg Archbold: Woohoo!

Jenny Fedullo: I believe we were in the same homeroom.

Greg Archbold: Yes.

Jenny Fedullo: because my last name was B, Ball.

Greg Archbold: Yeah.

Jenny Fedullo: And [00:02:00] you are Archbold, so we shared that homeroom as well.

Greg Archbold: Yeah. Jen was kinda quiet. She was kinda quiet and I was, I was not so quiet, so

Jenny Fedullo: Yeah, pretty large personality.

Greg Archbold: Yeah, so it was, , it was a good time. It was a good time.

Susan Cort: Well, I'm excited to learn about your book and, and hear the conversation the two of you are gonna have today.

Greg Archbold: All right. So little bit about me. I grew up in the suburbs of Chicago, go figure. And then my dad took a job with a company, and we moved to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, where I spent my high school years. And then after that, I joined the army and I started my career in emergency medicine. So basically I did paramedic work until I came up with the plan to become a commissioned officer, and I went to officer candidate school and worked as a military police officer. had the privilege of leading soldiers all around the [00:03:00] world in all sorts of different environments from Cuba, Afghanistan, Germany, Italy, Bosnia, , and some, some very difficult situations, which were, which were awesome. And when I retired, I kind of focused on something that was important to me, which was leadership. But I didn't want to write a traditional leadership, , book. So I wanted to take not only the things that I did well, but really focus on the things that I did not do well, because everyone is going to fail. It's up to the people to fight and how you finish. So that's kind of where the title came from.

And, and since it's not theory written, that's why I added, the leadership lessons you don't learn in the classroom. So I think it is something that, can help all leaders at all levels.

Jenny Fedullo: Awesome. All right, I'm gonna start out, and Greg, this is gonna be a tough one, but I don't know if you realize today, the exact date, June [00:04:00] 9th, is pretty significant. My daughter's graduating, but that's not why. 38 years ago today, June 9th, we graduated.

Greg Archbold: Oh, wow. I did not know that.

Jenny Fedullo: the day. Yeah. So as I read your book, "Fail, Fight, Finish," what struck me just the stories, right?

It was the wisdom you earned through those experiences and then how you intentionally translated those into lessons for leaders. So let me ask you my question. you look back the 18-year-old kid walking across the graduation stage 38 years ago, what do you think would surprise him the most about the leader you've become and the journey that got you here?

Greg Archbold: Oh, wow, that's a good one. 

Susan Cort: Yeah.

Greg Archbold: I think, I think one of the things that my 18-year-old self will be shocked is, number one, that I wrote a book. I will tell you a quick [00:05:00] Everyone knows that people who read are usually generally on the smarter end of the spectrum when it comes to things. It's simply because their vocabulary, and that's why, you know, when we help with our kids during the SATs and stuff, if they don't have good reading comprehension, the test in general is just difficult for them. My dad promised to pay me $100 for every book that I read in high school. You know how many books I read?

Susan Cort: None.

Greg Archbold: Zero. Zero. Because I just didn't like to read and it was just it was always difficult for me because reading, my brain moves so fast that reading a lot of times out loud, I'd never liked to read out loud even when I was in high school, and it took me a long time to get over that. So I think one of the biggest things 18-year-old me would be surprised about is the fact that I actually sat down and wrote a book,

Jenny Fedullo: wrote a book.

Greg Archbold: And that I actually get in front of [00:06:00] people and talk. those two were the big two things. Since I was such a talker back in high school, I think the other thing that would be surprising was, and I know we'll probably talk about it, is the power of leadership silence. You know, the fact that you learn so much from people by just giving them an opportunity to just let them talk. Too many leaders will say, "Well, what do you think?" They give about two seconds and then they go right in and they don't give people an opportunity to share what it is. And leaders have to remember, one of my, um, keynotes is you as a leader are not the smartest person in the room

Jenny Fedullo: Right. Right.

Susan Cort: You have to listen.

Jenny Fedullo: Yeah, you have to listen. And perfect segue. So I'm gonna jump right to chapter six. Okay.

Greg Archbold: Okay

Jenny Fedullo: one was about, you saying the most influential leaders earn trust and make decisions by listening [00:07:00] first, speaking last, and creating space for others to be heard. So when I heard, and my daughter is big on Hamilton, when I heard listen first, speak last, it, it popped.

And I don't know if you've seen the musical Hamiton, Hamilton.

Susan Cort: Yeah, it's

Greg Archbold: I have not but I will have to.

Susan Cort: smile, smile less, talk more. No,

Jenny Fedullo: no,

Susan Cort: Talk less, smile more, yeah.

Jenny Fedullo: more.

Greg Archbold: Okay, I like it.

Jenny Fedullo: There’s a, a lyric in there, but it's really Aaron Burr's philosophy. So he, his leadership style, he's really the cautious, observant, you know waits for the right moment, whereas Alexander Hamilton, he's the outspoken, decisive, willing to take risks, right?

So there's Burr telling him to talk less and smile more. Your chapter seems to argue for something a little bit more in the middle, right? So it's, it's, um, great le- leaders listen first but still speak with conviction. So where do you see that balance? I'm curious. And when does listening become [00:08:00] leadership? But then when does leadership need to stop make the call, right?

Greg Archbold: I, I think the, the first thing what listening does, , I firmly believe that listening builds credibility. When, when you have a senior leader and I like to teach this when I do workshops, is ask a question, because people want to feel valued. When as a leader, if I say, "Hey, Jen, we have X, Y, and Z going on. What do you think about that?" I should give you a few minutes to compose your thoughts and give me an answer. Because what I'm not only trying to do is not only let whatever plan we're having become our plan, not mine, because that's what listening does. And I think the second thing is I'm trying to develop [00:09:00] Jen to someday sit in my seat, and the only way that I can do that is if I listen to the things that she is, is, is bringing to the table. It-- You, you can't just always be, "Well, I'm in charge. I'm gonna do all the talking," and never listen to everyone else. And that's why, like, when you're ru- when leaders run meetings, they should always speak last. Why? Because everyone will start talking. If you say, "Hey, I think we're going to do this. What do y'all think?" Well, you've already told them what you thought. Instead of saying, "Hey, what do you all think?" And then I sit back, and I listen. And sometimes that, that silence can be very, very awkward, because no one wants to either-- Most people don't ever want to disagree with the senior person that's in the room. But I think the biggest thing to, to remember, that's where the leadership starts, is by [00:10:00] listening and saying, "Hey, why are you listening?"

Because you're trying to build credibility, but you're also trying to develop those other people that are in the room. Because if you're a leader, you're not gonna be there forever.

Jenny Fedullo: Mm-hmm.

Greg Archbold: gonna have to start developing others to come sit in your, in your seat.

Jenny Fedullo: Right. I love that. And when-- And I don't know what chapter it was, but you definitely said that if leaders ask the question, then provide the answer right away, everyone else is just trying to validate or support that. And then, like you just said, you're not developing them to think for themselves and to solution themselves. They're just reacting to what you provided. So that taking that back seat and listening first, is so critical. 

Greg Archbold: because there's nothing worse than every time you talk to your boss, you never get a word in edgewise.

Jenny Fedullo: Mm-hmm.

Greg Archbold: Like, and we've all worked for someone who just continuously, continuously does that. And it's [00:11:00] really difficult for senior leaders. Why? Because they're expecting everyone to listen to them, and that's a good thing that people listen to you, but your leadership starts when you start developing others to sit in your seat, and the only way you're going to be able to give them.

Give them the opportunity to think, and their answers may be wrong, and guess what? That's okay. But you've gotta tell them, "Hey, Jen, w- have you thought about this, this, and this?" And then again, what, what we would call in the military tactical pause, pause and listen and give them an opportunity to speak

Jenny Fedullo: Yep. Yep. So in the next chapter, you talk about exceptional leaders knowing when to coach for skill, mentor for vision, and lead with responsibility. And of course, it with our background in learning and development, you know, skill, mentoring we work with leaders all the time to develop training that way. But the, the lasting [00:12:00] impact comes from mastering all three. You also talk about the mental model and the mirror test. Oh, I love the mirror test, right? So you're asking yourself who's coaching you, who's mentoring you, who's leading you, but then you flip it and you say, who are you coaching, who are you mentoring, and who are you leading? So I'm curious, what inspired you to organize the chapter around those three roles, and how have you seen leaders use that? You know, are they trying to be more intentional about a certain role where they realize, eh, maybe, maybe I'm, I'm lacking in that regard?

Greg Archbold: Well, I, I think one of the things that, I try to tell people, , is this. Mentorship, we use that word synonymously with coaching and leadership. I look at leadership. Leadership, is your job. That is your job to lead people in whatever organization you're in. Mentorship is what I call a choice. When I ask people, "-- do [00:13:00] you have a mentor?" If they say they don't, you have to ask yourself, are you mentorship worthy? Because mentorship is not necessarily my responsibility. Mentorship, I am trying to guide you in a certain direction so your life can be better. It's no different than being a parent. I'm not there to be your friend. I'm there to guide you so your life , is better in the long run. And obviously in the corporate space, we're looking to guide you into , a certain area. But if you're not listening, if you're the person who shows up to work at eight fifty-nine, when you're supposed to start at nine o'clock, and you're leaving at four fifty, and when we do have meetings, you're not providing any information, uh, maybe I'm not gonna spend a whole lot of time trying to get you into that regional manager position because you're not showing me that you're doing anything.

So I ask people, the first [00:14:00] question is, if you don't have a mentor, you have to ask yourself why. Secondly, mentorship is not something I go to someone and say, "Susan, will you be my mentor?" No, mentorship usually starts with a cup of coffee. "Hey, Susan, you, you got time for a cup of coffee? Let's sit down. I have a couple things I'd like to, to go over with you, and let's, let's learn and see."

And then I start getting advice. But if you're not listening to my advice, I'm not necessarily going to, to waste my time.

Susan Cort: No, that's, that's like all a natural evolution of the relationship that you build with that person

Greg Archbold: Exactly. Exactly. But I think the key thing when it comes to mentorship is, number one, it's built over time, if you are a person that does not have a mentor, you've gotta ask yourself why you don't have one. And I think it's important, because normally a leader who is, mentoring is usually [00:15:00] being mentored, 'cause that's the first question I ask everyone who mentor is, "Who, who, who are you sharing what I'm giving you?"

Jenny Fedullo: Mm-hmm

Greg Archbold: And if you're not, then we're kinda defeating the purpose, you know? Because you have to know, say, "Hey, how do I help someone get through these hard times? How do I help them solve simple leadership problems?" You know, which is one of the big ones that I see all the time that people always come to me with is, how do they give constructive feedback without their team hating them?

Jenny Fedullo: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Greg Archbold: that is probably one of the most difficult things that, that mentors and coaches alike are having difficulties with.

Jenny Fedullo: Agreed.

Greg Archbold: But I think I ask that because I think it is so vital because it not only helps the leader, but I think it also helps the person who is receiving it. And as we, you know, teach people [00:16:00] this, I think anybody in learning and development should have an exercise where we ask them, "Hey, down three people that you're, you're mentoring. What was the last conversation you had, and what were the last three conversations you had with your mentor?" Because the, the relationship only works if you are reaching out and you are also reaching up and reaching down, is what I like to call it.

Susan Cort: Mm-hmm.

Jenny Fedullo: Mm-hmm. That's great advice, without a doubt.

Greg Archbold: I hope that made sense.

Jenny Fedullo: It did. It did. Um, so jump into chapter 11. I'm gonna skip a few,

Greg Archbold: Okay, yeah.

Jenny Fedullo: I liked when you talked about great leaders having traditions, right? We all have things that we- we've learned throughout the years, maybe through a mentor or something, but we've gotta relentlessly challenge that it be- could become outdated. So there could be a foundation we're building, but we've gotta, you know, continually improve. So in that chapter, you talk about [00:17:00] the roast pan story. I don't know if Susan knows the roast pan story…

Susan Cort: I do not

Jenny Fedullo: but maybe Greg can, can fill you in. But really, it, it made me laugh because I found the connection with...

So I manage a team of instructional designers and project managers, and we really pride ourselves on strong process, but always asking, "Is this creating value or is this creating more work? Does it make sense?" Right? We use the phrase, "Process with purpose." So this chapter felt like it was almost an argument for that philosophy. How do you know when a process is strengthening your culture or if execution - is quietly becoming a limitation , and you're being warned against it?

Greg Archbold: If you are 100% honest, and as a leader, you can ask if you have clear communication with your team, I would simply say just ask them. If you ask them like, going to add this process [00:18:00] to," I don't care, whatever it is, ask someone. And don't ask the manager because a lot of times the manager will always tell you, "Well, yeah, boss, this is great.

This is perfect." But if you ask that, what I would call ground level worker, "Does this make sense?" They will tell you. They will 100% tell you. So I think the best way to figure that out is to just simply ask someone. You know, one of the things I talk about especially like big organizations, especially older organizations, they have this legacy plan of how they are going to operate, and they use that phrase, "We've always done it this way."

Susan Cort: Mm-hmm.

Greg Archbold: Well, just because you've always done it this way don't make it right, know? that's why I don't care what it is that you do, after every class, I'm assuming you guys do some form of what I call the after actions [00:19:00] review, right?

Jenny Fedullo: Mm-hmm.

Greg Archbold: Which, you know, what were we supposed to do? What actually happened? And what was supposed to happen, right? then you have to, and here's where leaders have to step up, is did the things that happened, why did they happen? Was it a lack of resources? know, -- did training not go well with so and so because you-- let's say you're teaching , an online class and the, the video stuff wasn't working or if you're using polling, that wasn't working and the students said, "Hey, this class wasn't any good."

Well, why? Well, the polling didn't work. Is it because the instructor wasn't trained? 'Cause that's a training thing that we can fix. Or is it something that we need to talk about buying new software? So you have to start digging deep and start asking, you know, what I call the three whys. Like, why did this not work?

Well, why did it not work? Well, [00:20:00] it didn't work because of this. Well, hey, why do we do this? If you usually do the three whys, you can usually get to the root cause of, of any problem.

Jenny Fedullo: Mm-hmm.

Greg Archbold: and then start asking because, oh, well, training didn't go well. Well, why didn't it go well? Well, because of this. You know, is it a, is it a training issue or is it a what I call a software or a hardware issue, something that you need to purchase because they're outdated? If that makes sense.

Jenny Fedullo: It does. It does. So quickly, Susan, the roast pan story, and Greg, tell me if I get this wrong, but something that was passed down from generations is, you know, the, the next daughter's preparing the roast for the and she's always cutting off the ends of the roast , and, , you know, it was passed down from generation to generation, and finally someone said, "Why are you-- why do we cut off the ends of the roast?"

And it was simply because it didn't fit in the roast pan

Greg Archbold: Yeah.

Jenny Fedullo: time,

Greg Archbold: So just imagine,

Jenny Fedullo: done it

Greg Archbold: yeah, we've always done it that

Susan Cort: Yes.

Greg Archbold: -- It, [00:21:00] it goes basically if every time , you made a roast, right? You saw your mom off the ends and put it in there. Now you are cooking the roast for your kids, you're doing it, your daughter comes in and says, "Mom, why do you cut the ends off the roast?" don't know. Ask your

Susan Cort: Right.

Greg Archbold: So your daughter calls grandma. Grandma says, " I cut the ends off the roast because my pan was too small." that was really what it comes down to.

Susan Cort: Oh, that's funny.

Greg Archbold: we do things simply out of-- we do them out of institutional habit, not because it's the right thing to do.

Jenny Fedullo: And we're not asking, is this adding value? Is there a reason for this? Yeah. Practices them.

Susan Cort: Not that you wanna do change for change sake, but you should ask yourself each time, "Why are we doing this?" Just like you said.

Greg Archbold: And one of the big things, you know, when we we talk about change, and this kind of is, is in the m- middle of it, but [00:22:00] we, we talk about change and you would swear you used the F word when you say change in an organization, 'cause people get really, really excited and they get upset, when the new boss comes in and they want to change things. You know, and I, I tell a couple stories about some things, but the big thing that we have to teach our leaders and as we are instructing people, we need to think about, is this a problem or is it a preference?

Jenny Fedullo: Mm-hmm.

Greg Archbold: And if it is a problem, then let's fix it. If it's a preference, if all four-- three of us are in a conversation and I'm the only person, then, eh, we probably need to take a look at that. It's, if it's not a problem... and again, the big thing is, if you are a good leader and you have good communication skills, all you have to do is ask people and [00:23:00] they will tell you the truth. Everyone, everyone wants to be heard, so all you have to do is ask and says, "Hey, does this make sense?" 

Jenny Fedullo: Yep. 

Greg Archbold: Because too many times we are changing-- are massively changing all these things simply because the boss has a specific preference. I had a boss one time who decided to, , he was a very digital person, very digital. Didn't want paper, so when you had meetings with him, all of us had, , like iPad kinda, kind of things, and that's how he wanted to do briefings. And it was like, it was too hard to send it was it, he made things very difficult, but that wa-- it wasn't a problem, it was simply this guy's preference. Yes.

Jenny Fedullo: So talking about change, perfect segue. Chapter 13 is about change, and throughout the book, I wanted to find one quote that we could really, you know, study and analyze and, uh, throughout I'm like, [00:24:00] "Oh, this is the quote we're gonna talk about." And then, then I got to chapter 13 and I found the quote, and let me read it.

Greg Archbold: Okay?

Jenny Fedullo: It is, "Do not present your change as a finished product. Present it as a shared solution. When people feel as though they are part of the story, they will help you write the ending." So when I thought about that, it's not really about change management, it's about ego and certainty and identity, and I underlined it because I felt like that was a thread that kind of carried throughout your entire book. I wonder, though, why do so many leaders still walk into a room with a fully baked solution and expect everyone else to execute it? Like, why are we still not getting it, getting it right? Is it ego? Is it impatience? Is it fear of appearing, uh, incompetent, uncertain? You know, what, what are your thoughts?

Greg Archbold: I hate to say it, the problem is a lot of it is ego.  We start to dig so deep into our title that we forget that our [00:25:00] purpose is to teach, coach, mentor, and lead people, and that's where it comes in simple. And that's why it's so important if you start with open communication channels, because I can walk into any organization that I used to work with and talk to people and say, "Hey, what do you think?" And people will honestly tell me, "Hey Greg, I don't think this is a good idea." Well, why don't you think-- Because I always tell people, "If you don't like something I say, don't tell me just don't like it because it's dumb. You're gonna have to come up with a different course of action," and I'm open to listen to it. And I, I think I give one or two examples in the book about somebody telling me like, "Hey Greg, we need to change this." "Well, why?" "Well, here's why." "Wow, I never thought of it that way." Because again, we are not, as leaders, you're not the smartest person in the room. But too many people, they get caught up in their, their ego and they get caught up in their [00:26:00] title that says, "Well, I'm in charge and here's what we're going to do." But if you want buy-in from people, you have to tie them into the solution. That's where we, we kinda roll in the silence. "Hey team, our last quarter," let's say, "sales numbers weren't so great. Uh, I would love to hear what you all have to say and think about how we can move things forward."

You have to stop and be quiet, eventually someone will 'cause somebody will say, "Okay, I'm gonna wait for somebody else to talk." And I've been in rooms where I sat there just like this. I wasn't gonna jump in and start talking. I was gonna let the silence take over. And then somebody said, "Well, hey, why don't we do this?" And then somebody said, "You know what? I was thinking the same thing. Why don't we add this?" And then now it's not Greg's idea, it's our idea. And once it's our idea, once people believe they are part of the [00:27:00] solution, they're gonna be part of it. And your everyone on the leadership team needs to be on the same sheet of music because if it's the boss's idea, when people are in the break room or they're out having lunch and they'll be like, "Man, Greg came up with this idea.

I really don't wanna do it, but you know, he's the boss, so we gotta do it." No, no, no, no, no, no. Once we go out to execute a plan, it's all of our plans and we all have to own that. But you have to be able to develop the relationships with your team by doing some of the things, you know, we talked…

Listening and making sure that they-- if you bring them in to, to do it, and then you celebrate. Celebrate the wins with say, "Hey, we're doing this new thing." And if let's say it's a safety issue, like for warehouse workers, "Hey, guess what? Team so and so did this safety thing under our new plan and I wanna publicly recognize them." [00:28:00] I don't care if you are the boss or if you're just somebody on the team, anyone can say, "Can I have a second? hey, I wanna recognize Susan for doing A, B, C, and D. Let's give her a round of applause." You don't have to be a boss or a supervisor to publicly recognize someone, and we all know what it's like to be recognized for something that we've done. I don't care how old you get, I don't care what position you're in, when someone recognizes you for doing something, it makes you feel good.

And once you get people to buy into whatever you're selling, woohoo, let's get it, baby.

Jenny Fedullo: I agree.

Greg Archbold: a wrap

Jenny Fedullo: Greg, a theme, you know, whether you're talking about failure, trust, buy-in, leadership under pressure, you keep coming back to the idea that leadership is something you build with people, not for people.

Greg Archbold: Absolutely

Jenny Fedullo: just such a powerful concept

Susan Cort: and that's something that we hear time and time again when we interview people on this podcast, you know, whether they're talking about change management or you name it, pick the [00:29:00] topic. It's focusing on the people and making them a part of the process, and doing that intentionally, doing that by design, not by accident, and making sure that you're baking that into anything that you're trying , to train, change, educate people on, that they're truly a part of it from the start.

Jenny Fedullo: Right. Right

Greg Archbold: I mean, when we talk about most successful teams, um, number one, they have good communication skills. So I can only assume that a lot of, a lot of the people who will listen to this, uh, as we're teaching and we're helping develop different organizations, communication, do drills on communication because that is gonna be the foundation of your success. remind leaders that they need to bring-- how do they bring other people in to the planning process to solve problems?

Jenny Fedullo: Mm-hmm.

Greg Archbold: That's where that-- because again, once people [00:30:00] part of the solution, they'll have buy-in, and buy-in is where you believe and you understand like, "Hey, this is not just boss's plan.

We sat in the conference room and we came up with this and I'm believing in this." You may not agree with every aspect of the problem or how to solve it, but if you feel like you had a part in it, it's kinda like when you have a big, uh, spread for like Thanksgiving. You know, if you made, the mac and cheese and that's good mac and cheese, you're gonna be excited.

You're gonna feel part of the whole thing. Y'all, I'm a big boy, so I like to eat. Uh, so I love, I love a good food analogy. But I do believe that if you, if even if your piece of that pie is small, it's, it's just so very powerful to watch people who feel a part of developing something that is not only gonna help them. and the other thing leaders have to remember is you are not going to be able [00:31:00] to change your entire organization. My days in the military, we had this thing called span of control, right? If you can only fix your section, your team, that's where you focus on that, because I will guarantee you others will see it. Because what Jen is doing for her section has what I call the ramen effect, right? And here's a question for you both. Have you ever seen for ramen noodles? Uh, either TV, podcast, any digital. You've never seen one, have you? Nope. But everyone eats ramen noodles. Why? Word of mouth,

Jenny Fedullo: Word of mouth…

Greg Archbold: Right? So if you're doing good things in your section, somebody's gonna, somebody is seeing it and someone is talking about it.

Jenny Fedullo: Right. All right. You said food, you said Thanksgiving. This-- you, you

Susan Cort: This--

Jenny Fedullo: giving

Susan Cort: know this is like a softball segue here.

Jenny Fedullo: all right, chapter 15, The Pie of Success.[00:32:00] 

Greg Archbold: Oh, boy

Jenny Fedullo: So you argue that only 3% of us end up in the successful slice,

Greg Archbold: Yes.

Jenny Fedullo: part isn't that 3%, it's everyone else.

It's the way that people accidentally eliminate themselves. And you talk about versions of lazy, and I hate to say it, but it was kind of fun, but I found it intentionally, like, provocative because you're redefining laziness far beyond the couch, you know, sitting on your couch. You're talking about complacency and excuses and lack of learning. form of laziness, I'm curious, do you see most often in leaders today?

Greg Archbold: Content lazy. That's a very easy one.

Jenny Fedullo: Okay

Greg Archbold: So content lazy is where-- And this usually happens at the first promotion. , , I'm gonna say, um, not a regional manager, but, f- the first time someone get...

Jenny Fedullo: after supervisor. Yeah. Okay.

Greg Archbold: All right. So they are now in charge of people, and they have direct reports, right?

Because [00:33:00] they feel, "I've worked so hard, I've done all the training, I've done all these things, and now I'm in charge. I'm sticking my chest out for those who can't see me," right? So they're sticking their chest out, and they're like super excited because they're in charge. guess what they stop doing? They stop reading and trying to be an expert at their craft. They stop listening to podcasts. They stop reading the books. They stopped asking their, their mentors and their lead, the leaders that are above them feedback on how they can come, become better. They're just, they're just shooting from the hip, shooting from the hip, shooting from the hip, right?

And then they wonder why one of their direct reports has now surpassed them, and they're like, "Whoa, what happened?" Well, you got content lazy. Or they're wondering, why are all my peers who, let's say, got promoted around the same time they did are now, , have moved up past those different levels.  I've only [00:34:00] been out of the Army, you know, uh, two years now, so I'm still learning some levels of leadership in a lot of organizations. But after they pass that supervisor, manager level, , they're watching their friends just go past them. Why? Because they became content and they stopped learning. They stopped thriving. , I think that is the biggest one that happens, especially at , that level when they first get those direct reports. They were so excited to get there, and now they get to call themselves a leader, and then they stop learning, they stop caring, they stop trying to remember the reason, said, "You know, when I'm in charge, I'm gonna do blank differently." They forgot all those things. So that's what I call the content lazy.

Jenny Fedullo: Gotcha. So Greg, what I loved about the book is that you don't teach leadership with theories necessarily, right? You're teaching it through people, through the stories, right? And one of, one of my favorite [00:35:00] stories, I was really trying to figure out which one, which one. I kept coming back to Cedric because it reminded me much potential people have that can be unlocked if a leader sees it and coaches them and mentors them and finds, finds them, right?

And does their job. So I'm curious, looking back over your career, you have so many stories to tell, and you told a lot of them in the book. Which one resonates? Which one sticks out? Which one comes to mind that says maybe that was the one, the story, the moment, the person that really changed the way you lead?

Greg Archbold: Oh, wow.

Jenny Fedullo: I know, right? I'm putting you

Susan Cort: She starts with a tough question and she's ending with a tough question. You're up to the challenge, I know it.

Greg Archbold: Um, I am probably one of the few people in the world, and I'll, I'll say this, that I can count on one hand how many bad leaders I have had. Um, I have been, and I don't normally don't use the word luck, [00:36:00] because luck is defined as the hard work that other people don't see. but for me, I would say it started with one of my, one of my first leaders, uh, a young lady named Geraldine Ronan. I w- I don't know whatever happened to her, but she w- uh, was one of the very first supervisors that I ever had, and she showed interest in me succeeding and was proud, like almost like that, you know, like you're getting ready to experience soon, you know, having a child graduate high school.

Like you look at that and you have that proud feeling. When I did things, I saw that in her and I wanted to make her prouder. So if it meant, you know, being better in physical shape and studying materials and doing those things, I was willing to do it because it seemed like she actually cared. , And I think when you show someone that [00:37:00] they have value in your eyes and you are willing to go with them, "Hey Greg, I need you to do these books." "Oh, they're long, they're hard. It's a lot of reading." "Just keep doing it. Keep doing it." Sometimes I didn't like it, but when I found myself getting ready to get promoted over some people who had been there longer than me, she was like, she was like there. So I would say it was probably I was lucky enough to have a good leader who just really invested time, energy, and resources into seeing me succeed. And, and what made me want to do it was simply sometimes there's just the look on her face, uh, just really made me proud that I was doing the right thing

Jenny Fedullo: It's wonderful. I think we all have... What did you say her name was?

Susan Cort: Geraldine.

Jenny Fedullo: Geraldine. We all have Geraldines. Mine's a Deb Shavack. And Deb, if you're listening, yeah, I mean, it was just, there's just certain people that have such an influence on your life and get you going on the right path.[00:38:00] 

Greg Archbold: Absolutely

Jenny Fedullo: Thank you. I, of course, enjoyed this.

Like I said, I had the hardest time picking out where I wanted to focus, 'cause I think we could do a part two and a part three.

Greg Archbold: Will come back anytime you guys will have me.

Susan Cort: This was so much fun and so inspirational, and I think the two of you are gonna have a lot of influence on our listeners as they think about, uh, their own careers and how they might influence other people. So Greg Archibald, thank you for joining us, and we'll look forward to sharing more information about your book in the show notes

Greg Archbold: All right. Thank you so much. You guys take care

Susan Cort: my thanks to d'Vinci's Jenny Fedullo and our guest, author Greg Archbold for joining me today. If you have an idea for a topic or guest, please reach out to us at poweredbylearning@dvinci.com. And don't forget that you can subscribe to Powered by Learning wherever you listen to your podcasts.

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